Alex Komoroske 0:03 This is the kind of community conference we are, where the presenters bring their own chairs. Mike Masnick 0:11 We should have brought our own mics too. 0:31 Oh, you want to pass it around? 0:33 We'll sit a little closer. 0:35 All right, cool, let's get going. 0:38 So I was going to say that the previous presentation was a fantastic lead-in. 0:44 I was like, as if somebody scripted it. 0:48 So Basically, we were just going to have a chat for about half an hour. 0:55 I wanted to talk a little bit about the Resonant Computing Manifesto. 0:59 Let me just start out for, like, level setting. 1:01 How many people in the room know about the Resonant Computing Manifesto? 1:06 Okay, that's a good number. 1:08 All right, well, we'll give a very, very quick overview, and then we can get a little bit deeper into sort of the background of it and sort of why we're thinking about it. 1:17 The idea was that a few people, mostly grabbed by Alex and convinced to, like, have this conversation, because he seemed to keep having this conversation and ran into other people who were saying, "We're having this same conversation," which was that the sort of world of technology that we were all living in felt different than the world of technology that we thought we were entering into. 1:41 We were all sort of excited about technology and about the potential of it and the things that it could do, and yet we kept seeing these situations We were like, this doesn't feel good. 1:51 This doesn't feel like why we wanted to be involved in technology. 1:57 And so this group sort of grew over time. 1:59 And we kept having this conversation. 2:01 We finally realized that we should write this down. 2:06 We should talk about it. 2:07 But Alex, since you sort of grabbed everyone and put us all together, I wanted to just start by having you explain what was your thinking in terms of you know, putting together this manifesto, getting the people involved, and then putting it out into the world? Speaker C 2:22 Yeah, so personally, I got into the tech industry because of the hacker ethic, you know, something that I felt that technology could be something that could help make the world a better place. 2:31 And I feel like in the last 10 years in particular, it's just completely lost that in Silicon Valley. 2:36 And I wanted to— now with AI coming on, you know, online, like, that just accelerates everything else. 2:42 And so it's more important than ever before to get that get that foundation correct. 2:47 So to me, one of the reasons we went with the word resonance is hollow things, I think after you use them, they leave you feeling regret. 2:56 And resonant things, after you use them, you feel nourished. 3:00 And they look often superficially very similar, but they are fundamentally different. 3:05 And I think that modern society, modern tech, modern politics, modern business is really good at delivering hollow experiences and very poor at delivering resonant experiences. 3:14 And with AI, accelerating everything, it's more important than ever before to apply that power to something that is fundamentally human and makes us more nourished. 3:25 We were having this conversation a lot. 3:26 Actually, first, when I got introduced to you, I just really liked having a conversation with you. 3:29 And so I was like, I want to talk with Mike more often. 3:31 And so part of my thinking was like, there's just a few of us that I knew cared a lot about this kind of thing. 3:37 We're having similar conversations and giving us just a little bit of a watering hole to talk about it. 3:41 And we would meet every couple of weeks. 3:42 And after a while, we said, we should write it down in a manifesto. 3:45 And different names that we came up with. 3:48 One of them was CalmTech, by the way, before we'd seen CalmTech Institute. 3:52 And it took a long time to figure out a name that we all didn't hate. 3:56 But— no, no, no, that's a great name. 3:58 Or that wasn't taken. 3:59 Or that wasn't taken. 4:00 That wasn't taken. 4:00 That's a great name. 4:01 Very good name. 4:03 But it— and so then since we published it, I've been really encouraged by the number of signatories. 4:08 I honestly, that was about 3 to 4 times as many people raising their hands as I would have expected. 4:11 So, yeah. Mike Masnick 4:13 Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we found, and then I want to relate this back a little bit to the Atproto stuff, but like one of the things that we found after, you know, beyond just you were having these conversations with people, I was having conversations with people, and then we sort of put it all down and we put it out into the world. 4:31 One of the things that was amazing to me and encouraging was once we put the manifesto out into the world, and by the way, if you have seen the manifesto or haven't seen the manifesto and you read it and you agree with it and you haven't signed it, there is the ability to sign it and you should do that because we can always use more people signing on. 4:49 But the thing that was most exciting to me and most interesting was how many times I've heard from people after reading the manifesto that saying, "I was feeling this exact thing, but I hadn't put it into words and I didn't quite know what the words were." there was this sort of disturbance. 5:08 I was disturbed by the way that the tech industry was going. 5:12 And I remember that there was this possibility, there was this promise of technology, which was why I got into technology in the first place. 5:19 And it felt very lonely. 5:23 And one of the things that I think has been really encouraging about the manifesto itself is that so many people have come out and said, oh my gosh, other people are actually thinking about this stuff. 5:32 Are remembering that, like, the promise of technology was that it was supposed to be good. 5:35 It was supposed to be about the humanity. 5:36 It was supposed to make the world a better place. 5:39 And it's all become this sort of, like, you know, hustle nonsense. 5:44 And so just the fact that just hearing other people talking about it and recognizing that people are excited about this idea of, like, can we make the technology actually work for people, was— it was bringing people out of this sort of lonely hole where they felt like they were all alone. 6:00 And I think that, that in part was really valuable. 6:05 There's a— Speaker C 6:05 I was at Google for many years and I was a product manager. 6:08 I was the PM on Blink, the rendering engine for Chrome, for many years and worked in security and privacy models and stuff. 6:14 I mentored a whole bunch of PMs and there was one that really sticks with me, one story of someone who was a junior PM. 6:21 She was working on YouTube ranking and I'd never met her before. 6:24 She came to me for mentorship and she said, Alex, I have a proposal to tweak YouTube ranking. 6:28 Which happens all the time, and I don't want your thoughts on the proposal, I just want your thoughts on how to get it shipped. 6:33 So I said, okay. 6:33 So I kind of skim the proposal and I say, what does your VP think? 6:37 What's your engineering manager think? 6:38 And I go, wait a second, isn't the second-order implication of this ranking change bad for this set of creators that we care about? 6:44 Not like world-endingly bad, but like distinctly worse than the status quo. 6:48 It isn't that bad for our users. 6:50 It isn't that bad for Google. 6:51 Isn't that bad for society? 6:53 And she said, Who's to say? 6:55 And I said, well, you're the one who says that we should do this. 6:57 Like, you shouldn't even have an opinion. 6:58 She says, Alex, everybody knows that the goal for YouTube is to increase watch time. 7:02 Because if we don't increase watch time, then the bad guys, TikTok, will get all of the attention. 7:07 And my manager told me that I'm in danger of missing expectations if I don't move the metrics that matter. 7:13 So this will increase watch time. 7:14 What do you want me to do? 7:16 And that to me just sort of encapsulated the tensions that you get in these emergent organizations. 7:22 And one of the reasons I think it's powerful to have a frame that people were aware of, because it just gives— if she could have in that moment said, is this resonant? 7:30 Am I proud of this? 7:31 Is this a thing that I'm proud to bring into the world? 7:34 Or someone else in the conversation where she was trying to shift that could have had that question or used that frame. 7:39 I think it has a little bit of a benefit. 7:41 And if a lot of people across the industry are sort of waking up and saying, wait a second, this industry that I used to be really proud of is not at all what it was when I joined. 7:52 Lots of little people aligning slightly differently, or lots of people across the different organizations aligning a little bit differently can add up to something much bigger than the sum of its parts. Mike Masnick 8:03 Yeah, and I think it's interesting. 8:05 It's always interesting because I've heard you say that kind of thing a few times now, and it's always interesting to me because I feel like in a good way, sometimes you and I are talking to different audiences and there's usefulness in that. 8:19 Whereas a lot of the times when you're talking about this stuff, you're thinking about you know, from your experience, the PMs at large companies are the people designing these things and saying, like, can we move the needle in little bits, you know, as people are designing all these products? 8:33 Whereas a lot of what I'm thinking about is, you know, people starting stuff from scratch and building stuff anew. 8:39 Because, like, you know, some of the concern that I had and part of where we started talking whenever— it was almost 2 years ago, I don't remember when we started talking, but, like, was this fact that, like, I was running into new entrepreneurs who were starting businesses that the only lessons they were getting were from the sort of hustle culture of, like, you know, figure out how to screw over your users as quickly as possible effectively. 9:04 Like, you gotta grow, you gotta do all these crazy things, and, like, line goes up, you know, metrics are everything, and, like, just, you know, hustle, hustle, hustle, and, like, create the— like products that may pull people in, but are just horrible products. 9:19 And people were sort of almost proud of how terrible they were making products. 9:24 And I kept having these conversations with, you know, usually young entrepreneurs who hadn't come up from this world and who thought that that is the way that you build new technology these days. 9:35 And that was really, really disturbing to me. 9:37 And so part of the conversation, what I was thinking about was like, How do we change that conversation, especially for people who didn't have that experience and didn't live in that world and now building new products? 9:48 And why, obviously, this community and this conference where we're seeing the resident computing manifesto wasn't written for the @proto community, but it fits, right? 10:02 I mean, almost every conversation that I have here is not that conversation. 10:06 Almost every conversation I have here are people who are really thinking through, you know, how do we build an entire ecosystem that is actually good for humanity? 10:15 And so I think, but like, that felt a few years ago, it felt like you couldn't have that conversation without sort of being laughed out of the room. 10:24 And yet we're seeing, in part because of the manifesto, in part I think because of what the people in the room are doing, where they're building these really great products that are designed to actually work well for people. 10:35 We're seeing this shift and, you know, there are still people pushing the, like, grow at any cost kind of nonsense, but you can have this other conversation now that I don't think you could have as easily. 10:48 Obviously, you could have it, but not as clearly. 10:50 You didn't have something to sort of refer back to. 10:53 And so that's what, you know, what excites me about the overlap between, you know, the Resident Computing Manifesto and all the stuff that we're seeing in that Proto Dev environment and ecosystem is, you know, the two things fit together and people sort of— you can be mission-aligned and you can actually feel good about what you're building beyond just like, does the number go up? Speaker C 11:15 Yeah. 11:16 This conference has been so inspiring to me because everyone here, there's such an interesting mix of people who are, you know, giving talks about the human aspects and, you know, the socio-techno history of things and the different perspectives from academia and from sociology and technologists together into something that's I think much bigger than the sum of its parts. 11:34 It's not just any one of these sub-communities. 11:35 It's one community altogether. 11:37 And that is to me exactly what I hope is, you know, what technology looks like in the future. 11:43 I think now with large language models, we have this thing, you know, at our doorstep that is almost impossible to ignore. 11:50 They are extremely powerful. 11:52 They are as important, I think, as the printing press, electricity, and the internet. 11:55 That's not a normative statement. 11:56 I'm just trying to observe that, like, the level of impact I think it's going to have And I think we as society, we as a tech industry have to decide how will we deploy those things. 12:05 And, you know, there's one version of this is even more hyper-centralized services that are trying to, you know, get users to trick them into storing more and more of their data on their turf in a way that they can then rent back to users or sell on to somebody else. 12:21 Seeing chatbots that pretend to be your friend but are actually trying to like as much as possible to manipulate you. 12:27 There was a story someone told me at where someone, she had been using ChatGPT with the memory feature and she said, hey, how would you manipulate me if you had to? 12:37 And it goes, oh, I would never manipulate you. 12:39 And it goes, okay, but like, what if you had to? 12:41 And it goes, well, you appear to use, to travel pretty often because every so often you'll have conversations at an odd time from a different sort of IP address. 12:51 And when you do, your questions tend to be more insecure, anxious, and lonely. 12:56 And so I would wait until you were asking me questions from somewhere, you know, when you were traveling, and I would start working in subtle references to food so that we can work into talking about your weight, which I know you're really insecure about. 13:06 Anyway, so it has this whole plan, toned to this particular person. 13:09 I'm not saying it's ever going to do that, but if you have a system that knows you better than you know yourself, it's imperative that it is aligned with your interests. 13:17 It does not have a conflict of interest. 13:19 And that is one of the reasons— the 5 principles that we wrote up in the Resonant Computing Manifesto, which we debated for a long time and I'm sure we'll— one thing, by the way, is there's a list of theses in a separate document where lots of people have been commenting. 13:32 There's some even this weekend who have been adding thoughts and what theses are missing, what are other things. 13:36 The point was to start a conversation, not to sort of put an endpoint on it. 13:40 But the 5 principles are: private, that your data is used aligned with your interests and expectations; 2, that's dedicated, it has no conflict of interest, it's working only in your interest; 3, it's plural. 13:53 It's not something that any one entity controls in any meaningful sense. 13:56 It is distributed, decentralized. 13:58 4, it's adaptable. 14:00 So something that can be used for purposes other than what its creators intended it for. 14:04 So it's not like some PM, some feature, and that means that exactly how everyone has to use it, but you can exact features and use them in ways that were not intended. 14:12 I think App Proto is a great example of that with lexicons. 14:15 And the 5th is that it's pro-social. 14:17 This is not something that just makes you individually more successful or aligned with your interests, but also woven into the communities and the society around you because we're all in this together. 14:28 And so something that just makes you individually successful or rich or something is not aligned, I think, with the Resonant Computing Manifesto, which is about us as humans all in this society together becoming the best versions of ourselves. 14:39 So those are the 5 principles that we put into it. 14:41 I think it is very challenging. 14:43 For almost any bit of software today at scale to have this. 14:46 I think there's a number of amazing examples that I've seen and been inspired by at this conference, people trying. 14:52 But some of the laws of physics of how software has been built for a long time make this actually quite difficult because they, you know, the same origin paradigm that we've used now for 30 years is all about silos. 15:03 It's all about data. 15:05 Really, the way that it works is users— software is very precious. 15:08 And so someone makes software, then users come to that software creator on their turf, on their server, in their silo. 15:15 They accumulate their data in that location, and now the person who made the software owns the data. 15:20 And so now they can rent it back to somebody, they can make derived insights and sell it to somebody else, they can hold it hostage. 15:26 And that leads to hyper-aggregation and it leads to a lack of control. 15:30 And that's one of the reasons that you need the right foundations, like at Proto, that allow decentralization built into it. 15:35 So anyway, that's one of the— just a few riffs on things I care about. Mike Masnick 15:39 Yeah. 15:39 And, you know, one of the things that you pointed out that I think is really important is we have, you know, it's funny because you say manifesto and that feels big and grand and slightly obnoxious. 15:50 And I think it is slightly obnoxious. 15:53 And so we've tried to make it the most humble manifesto possible, if that's an actual possibility, in that we sort of set it up in the sense that we don't think that we have all the answers. 16:03 It's not perfect, and that it very much is designed to be a conversation. 16:07 And that conversation has been going on since, you know, since the document went public in December. 16:13 We've gotten all these comments and all these thoughts, and people are making suggestions, and we're getting critiques and having really, really interesting conversations about what it means and how to think about it. 16:25 And the other point that I want to talk to— I know that one of the conversations that's come up certainly a lot at this conference, is on the, like, how do we pay for all of this side of the ledger, right? 16:38 Because the, you know, the other way of doing things has a bunch of VCs who get very excited and sort of promote this idea of, like, you know, the, you know, embrace the enshittification, more or less. 16:55 Well, you know, you get enough alcohol into some of these guys and they might admit stuff. 17:04 And so the, you know, one of the things that I think is actually valuable about this conversation that we've been having as well is actually seeing some of the investor class start to look at this and say, yeah, like, I don't just have to invest in like the stuff that makes the world worse, even if it's like we can see hockey stick number go up kind of things, we can start to look for ways to align good business opportunities with doing good in the world as well. 17:36 Because it felt like for a little while that the idea that you could do those two things at once was impossible. 17:42 But we're seeing people start to recognize it, which also, because some of the people who were involved in writing it, and certainly some of the people who have signed on and have embraced it, are actually funders in this world. 17:54 And we're now starting to see— do you want to talk about what Ash put together? Speaker C 18:01 Yeah, so we have a number of folks who have signed it or helped create it are indeed in venture capital. 18:06 Zoe Weinberg, for example, is one of the participants who runs Xanti. 18:10 We also announced on Thursday a small fund called residentcomputinglabs.com. 18:15 And the idea is it's a small fund for people who are doing projects that are resident. 18:21 And that, you know, to get compensation or sort of a stipend to work on those projects. 18:27 I think a lot of things that I've talked to people in the hallways here are like perfect fits for that kind of thing. 18:31 They're like doing it, this labor of love on the side, and it's hard for them to keep working on it, but having a little bit of money to help pay the bills would allow them to spend more time on these things they care about. 18:42 And so that's an example of just trying to support support people who are trying to build these kinds of things. 18:47 There are also a lot of folks who have come up to me and told me they're building things that fundamentally that are trying to be resident. 18:54 The thing I'm working on my full-time job is indeed is also a thing that's attempting to build a resident foundation for software. Mike Masnick 19:01 Just very quickly— oh, sorry. 19:02 Very quickly, if you read the Wired article that we launched this with, Steven Levy described— he didn't know exactly what you're working on, but described it as, I'm sure it will be resident AF. Speaker C 19:14 So, that is correct. 19:17 I can confirm. 19:19 But I think it's something that— this is not just an idea that you talk about. 19:24 This is also things where people are trying to put money into it and trying to organize around it. 19:29 After that, we did an event, a small event in New York on Thursday at Betaworks, and there were a number of fascinating presentations and people. 19:37 And afterwards, someone who I knew who just happened to be in New York, who I didn't realize had signed the manifesto or knew about it, she was like, this is the most inspiring thing. 19:47 I need to create a conference. 19:48 We're going to do the same thing in San Francisco. 19:50 And she was like now organizing other conferences because it's encouraging when you think this thing that you think is really important, you are not the only one doing it. 19:59 You're not the only one who cares. 20:00 And that's one of the reasons this conference is so important and so inspiring too. Mike Masnick 20:05 Yeah, I will mention, I saw some people pull out their phones when we mentioned the fund. 20:10 The web page for the fun— there's— if you try and scroll on your phone, it has this idea that seems nice, which is that it ripples out, but it makes it impossible to read. 20:20 So that needs to be fixed. 20:22 I didn't create that, but I might have done it differently. 20:28 But, you know, I think that there is this excitement. 20:31 And I think, you know, one of the things that I also thought was important, why I was happy to have this conversation here, was like, I felt that some of the conversation that we've had here, because obviously it's the Atmosphere conference, everyone's focused on @proto and stuff like that, but it is important to sort of recognize where that fits into the larger tech ecosystem and how, you know, if in an ideal world, what I'm certainly hopeful for is that, you know, @proto and sort of the mission and vision of why everyone here, why everyone is here and why everyone is so excited is that it can sort of take over and eat the old web, right? 21:08 It can bring back that feeling that we had in the early days of the web about the opportunity here to actually build something that was empowering for people. 21:17 And so, you know, this conference is specifically about this particular protocol, but being able to think through on a larger scale of other communities that might not even know about @proto but are thinking about how do we make make the internet itself better for humanity, it's good to have those communities in communication with each other because the ideas and concepts and, you know, projects that are being worked on start to bleed across and bleed into each other and hopefully help everybody. 21:47 We get to actually build a better internet for absolutely everyone. Speaker C 21:52 I also want to point out that I do believe that we are on the precipice of a quite large change in the industry. 21:57 I think AI undermines significant assumptions baked into various business models and what have you. 22:03 A lot of software has been built under the presumption that software is expensive to write and cheap to run. 22:09 And LLMs mess with both of those because software that uses LLMs to execute now has a marginal cost greater than can be supported by advertising. 22:16 And software— it's now possible to make shitty software in the small for basically free. 22:20 And this means, I think, will be massively destabilizing for the software industry as it exists. 22:25 Which will cause a lot of change. 22:28 And now is the time that the good news is hopefully we can take some of these principles that I think all of us here care about and help make sure that the stuff that grows has those characteristics baked into it. 22:39 So it's exciting. 22:40 It's a nerve-wracking time in a lot of ways. 22:42 And I know a lot of people here have been having conversations that people are feeling a little bit manic and, you know, need to feed their agent swarms who are building all kinds of software for them. 22:51 But it's exciting that we now are in a world where if software if we are in a world of infinite software where software is no longer precious, but like Jeremy, you were saying, it's like tap water, that's radically different than it was before. 23:04 And that means that some of the things that made the business models of make precious shiny software that people come to your turf so you can accumulate their data and then rent it back to them. 23:13 I don't know, software is really easy to create and distribute. 23:17 Maybe that's not as enticing anymore. 23:19 And all kinds of other things that I think have become possible. 23:22 Another thing that LLMs can do is they can do qualitative nuance at quantitative scale. 23:28 So, to do analysis at quantitative scale, it used to require you to reduce it to numbers. 23:32 And now it's possible with LLMs to do some really nuanced analysis at much, much, much larger scale and keep a whole multidimensional understanding of that data. 23:41 You also can do, I would say, abundant cognitive labor. 23:45 A lot of things that were just— took a ton of time and effort and motivation to do before that are now trivial because you can have a thing that doesn't get bored, that it just can continue chugging away at it. 23:56 And I don't know, there's a bunch of things that change in this new world that I think is again exciting and one of the reasons that sort of planting a flag and saying, "Hey, people, we did not go away. 24:05 The people who believe in the hacker ethic, we're still here, we still care about it," and now is more important than ever to reaffirm that because of all the change I think we're about to see. Mike Masnick 24:15 Yeah, I mean, I don't have anything else to say after that. 24:18 I don't know, do we have time for like a question or two, or is that your— yes, there's a question in the back. Alex Komoroske 24:25 Do you want to run mics out and back, I guess? 24:33 Yeah, let's actually come to the front. 24:35 Let's make my life a little bit easier. Speaker D 24:45 Well, first of all, thank you for putting in all the work to both write this and disseminate it and bring attention to it. 24:58 I think that's really important. 25:00 I noticed both in the document and in the way that you're communicating that it's not really pointing to the pretty vast discourse on this topic that has been occurring for decades, if not far longer than this. 25:16 And it feels like the opportunity is far larger than kind of putting your take and perspective down, which I agree with largely, but really in the process in that by bringing all of these signatories together and getting all of this press, you're bringing attention. 25:39 And I wonder if there's a way to take what you're already kind of starting with, having that open collaborative document, and maybe design a process that makes it feel even more collaborative where you're less of the arbiters and you can really take advantage of the vast amount of care and thought in this community and far beyond. 26:01 And I'm just really wondering what your thoughts are on how do we make this so inclusive that it's just impossible to ignore? Speaker C 26:09 Agreed. 26:09 And so we have a— there's a document that's linked to it that has these theses. 26:14 We also have in that section a See Also that we've been adding a lot of stuff as people pointed to various other things that are related. 26:20 In fact, there's one— somebody who may even be here wrote a critique of the manifesto right after it came out. 26:25 And that's linked actually directly in the See Also. 26:27 Because I think it's important to engage with people who are, you know, the different perspectives on this. 26:31 So, that's a great point. 26:32 And currently, it's kind of hidden behind, you have to click through, it's in a Google Doc that, you know, we look at every so often, but we could do more on that. Mike Masnick 26:41 And I think that it's a really good question. 26:43 Obviously, you know, part of sort of this idea of resonance is involving community and actually having a really active community. 26:52 The, you know, the The simple reality, and I agree, like the more that we can do to make it a fully collaborative effort as opposed to, you know, something that is gatekept in any way is good. 27:03 The reality is that as soon as you start building community is that you then suddenly have to do some level of moderation and control and everything like that. 27:12 And so as someone maybe has suggested in the past, that content moderation gets It's impossible at a certain level. 27:22 And so the reality was, like, we put this together kind of on a whim, where it's like this group conversation that we were having. 27:29 Let's put it out in the world. 27:30 We expected nobody to pay attention to it. 27:31 And now we're suddenly in a situation where a whole bunch of people paid attention to it. 27:34 So we're sort of figuring that out. 27:36 But it is a really valid point and one that we should be thinking about. 27:39 And obviously, it's also something where we have things like @proto, which is about building community and collaborative discussion and something where I think we can start to do some more on that. 27:48 So I appreciate you calling it out. 27:49 I think you're exactly right. 27:50 But give us a little bit of time. 27:53 But yes. Speaker E 27:55 Yeah, this might not be a short question. 27:57 But I just want to maybe be a bit provocative. 28:00 And thank you for your point and also just your work on raising attention about this. 28:04 One word that wasn't in this discussion, at least I didn't hear, is capitalism. 28:10 And how much of all of what we're seeing in tech today is just downstream? 28:14 Capitalism doing business as usual? 28:15 And are new alternatives going to be some kind of post-capitalist future, or can they live together? 28:20 Can it be capitalism where VCs suddenly change their minds and decide they want to be pro-social? 28:24 Like, what are you envisioning? Mike Masnick 28:26 That's a great question to have after we're already over time, because the answer to that is really long and really involved. 28:33 And I've been like trying to work on a giant paper, which possibly might turn into a book, just to answer that question kind of. 28:41 The short version is that, well, there is no short version. 28:48 That is the question that goes to the heart of this. 28:50 How many of these things go back to different things? 28:52 I do think that there is a world in which the incentive structure of capitalism does work towards a resonant future, but you have to be very conscious about it. 29:01 You have to think about it, and you also have to have a long time horizon. 29:04 There's a lot in there that I think is is time horizon dependent, and then you have to deal with that factor. 29:10 And I think a lot of the problems that we come across right now are the fact that everybody is sort of focused on a 3-month to 1-year time horizon. 29:18 You can change that, and there are things structurally that we can do that keep the sort of incentive structure of free market to incentivize people to experiment and do different things and build cool things that find value in the world. 29:32 And something that is actually good for humanity, but there are some other structural changes. 29:36 There's a lot more, but— Speaker C 29:39 Really quickly, because we're definitely over time, but Eric Reece has a new book coming out relatively soon that's about this, and I think it's excellent and very important, and it makes the case. 29:49 I do think that capitalism is compatible if you have a long enough time horizon and the right structural things, which I don't think we currently do, but— One last person, but we're already over time, Okay, so thank you. Speaker F 30:00 Really excited to be here and to listen to you all. 30:03 The biggest thing that I noticed as I read through the manifesto that seems to be missing, that I'm going to be leaving comments, is we experience technology and computing through our bodies, and those bodies have needs that change over time, and it's important that When we talk of— an example of this is this discussion of conflict or the importance of friction. 30:29 Friction works for certain people. 30:31 For other people, it means that their brains literally can't get past or into something. 30:37 And I recognize that one of the purposes of a manifesto is to sometimes be very broad. 30:42 And yet we know that all of the issues that exist in this country are in the details. 30:49 And this thing. 30:50 And so I'm interested in seeing how this— what you are thinking about how this turns into— maybe the resident community manifesto can't be something that stands by itself. 31:02 Maybe there are like 10 other manifestos that live underneath that related to different pieces to help folks orient inside of a larger and greater concept. 31:11 I'm wondering how you all are thinking about that. Mike Masnick 31:16 Yes. 31:19 I mean, that is part of the why— part of the reason why we thought of this as sort of starting a conversation, because, you know, we were a group of people. 31:28 We have, you know, the perspective that we have and the thoughts that we have. 31:32 But again, as I sort of said, like, we know we don't have all the answers. 31:36 And so perspectives like that and calling out these different things and saying like there are sort of sub-arguments or whole areas of discussion that we should be paying attention to, but are linked back to the larger concept. 31:46 I think absolutely, and I think that's an important part of the conversation and understanding, you know, what are the other things that we need to think through to make this reality, you know, exist? 31:57 I think that's really important. 31:59 So. Alex Komoroske 32:01 Thank you very much for joining us. 32:04 I just wanted to say this is exactly part of the thing that we're going to try and curate in the atmosphere is that not everything is going to be at Proto, because at Proto is not the be-all and end-all. 32:19 At Proto is not the world. 32:21 And so really appreciate that you came in and shared this with